It may take years to implement the so-called de-Sovietization law adopted by the Seimas in December, and no funds have been allocated for it yet, says Arūnas Bubnys, director general of the Lithuanian Genocide and Resistance Research Center (LGGRTC).
He predicts that the dissatisfaction of a part of the population with the implementation of the law may be caused by changing the names of the streets, as the law does not provide for listening to their opinions.
According to A. Bubnios, the ban on promoting not only totalitarian but also authoritarian regimes established at that time raises serious questions regarding the construction of the monument to President Antanas Smeton.
Vilnius city municipality recently made a decision to erect a monument to A. Smetona in the square near the Old Vilnius Theater.
According to the law passed by the Seimas, it will be forbidden to promote totalitarian, authoritarian regimes and their ideologies in public facilities in Lithuania.
Public objects can be recognized as promoting totalitarian, authoritarian regimes and their ideologies by the Genocide and Resistance Research Center of the Lithuanian population or municipal institutions. Before that, a special inter-institutional commission will have to present its assessment.
After receiving the conclusion of this commission, the General Director of the Genocide Center must make a decision either to remove the public object or to leave it, no later than within five working days. The decision to remove such an object must be made within three months at the latest.
- In May of this year, the Law on the Prohibition of Propagation of Totalitarian, Authoritarian Regimes and Their Ideologies, adopted by the Seimas, will enter into force. One of the most important roles in the de-Sovietization of public spaces is planned for the Genocide Center and specifically for you. Where are you going to start?
- According to the law, many functions are entrusted to us. There is a problem that, for example, we are tasked with organizing the work of an interdepartmental commission of experts, which will make proposals to the general director about one or another specific public object - a monument, a memorial sign, a commemorative plaque - whether to remove it, or change it, or leave it. From a purely managerial and logistical point of view, the center needs additional positions to organize the work of this commission. We cannot shift this function onto the shoulders of employees who have their own specific jobs, plans, and programs. This requires new people and funding.
From our point of view, five to six new positions would be needed to service the activities of this commission. Financially, it would cost 124 thousand for the year. euros.
- However, there are neither posts nor funds in this year's budget. what will you do
- The law will enter into force on May 1st, there is a budget review in July, of course we will try to "break through" additional funding in order to be able to implement this law normally.
There are different opinions about the law itself. There is an understanding of de-Sovietization in a broad sense and a narrow sense.
As for this law, it seems to me that it provides for de-Sovietization in a more narrow sense, as it covers only public objects, public spaces: monuments, memorial signs, commemorative plaques, as well as propaganda of totalitarian regimes. In reality, there are only objects of the Soviet regime in Lithuania that should be removed.
However, authoritarian regimes may raise questions. Even now there is a dispute about the monument to President Antanas Smetona - whether a monument to him should be built in Vilnius or not. A serious question, I would say.
Some - for it to be built, others - for it not to be and argue that he was an authoritarian president, the regime was authoritarian, parties were banned, Seimas practically did not work.
- It turns out that the construction of the monument to A. Smetona may contradict the law of de-Sovietization?
- The question of whether you can object or not, because the law also talks about authoritarian regimes. The question arises whether the monument to A. Smetona is compatible with the ban on promoting authoritarian regimes or not. After all, the law is not only about the ban on promoting totalitarian, but also authoritarian regimes.
- Who should answer this question?
- I think that perhaps the best answer would be the inter-institutional commission that will make proposals to the center's general director. It will be staffed by competent people from universities, the Lithuanian Institute of History, the Department of Cultural Heritage, I think they would have enough competence to answer such a question.
The center itself only studies totalitarian regimes from 1940 to 1991.
On the other hand, if we talk about de-Sovietization in a broad sense, we are not only talking about public objects, their removal. Public organizations and parties criticize this law because, for example, it underestimates the communist regime that was in Lithuania. The Communist Party is not condemned as a criminal organization.
- But the Communist Party is banned in Lithuania.
- It is banned, but its activities are not evaluated at the state level. Communism in general was not condemned by the legal act of the Lithuanian state as such. There was no tribunal, neither in Lithuania nor in Europe, that was similar to the Nuremberg process for judging Nazi criminals.
- It has not been done for thirty years, how long, in your opinion, will the condemnation of communism be relevant?
- Over time, that relevance fades, because the number of actors who distinguished themselves in the Soviet era, who worked in security structures or headed the Communist Party, or worked for the KGB, is decreasing. But there were no legal consequences for those people.
For example, Marijonas Misiukonis participated in the operation to arrest one of the last Lithuanian partisans, Antanas Kraujelis, which ended in Kraujelis' death. After the restoration of independence, M. Misiukonis held a high position, received high awards from the President of Lithuania, and what he did during the Soviet era was not taken into account. (M. Misiukonis was acquitted in the genocide case for the death of A. Kraujelis-Siaubūnas - BNS).
The real lustration and de-Sovietization was not done in Lithuania. Organizations of political prisoners and exiles say that it is not enough to remove monuments and rename streets, it is necessary to evaluate the communist regime as such. And evaluate not only historically, morally, but also legally. It seems to me that those people have the right to talk like that.
As for the consequences for specific people, it will quickly become irrelevant, but historically, the question is relevant.
It seems to me that this matter is important for the whole of Eastern Europe. We also know how many victims the communist regime took in Asia - China, Cambodia. In addition, we see that even now in China, the Communist Party rules and behaves quite harshly when it comes to human rights.
- Returning to the de-Sovietization law. How long do you expect to "fire" the mechanism?
- I think that we could really accelerate in the second half of this year. A commission needs to be established, human and financial resources need to be found, and finally an inventory needs to be made of how many objects there are that need to be removed or replaced, and contacts with municipalities need to be established.
There are, apparently, 160 Red Army cemeteries alone. And the names of the streets... Let's remember how many disputes there were about the Petro Cvirka monument. There will certainly be similar cases. As for Salomeja Nėries school, her bust is next to the school.
Of course, many questions will arise in cooperation with municipalities and local communities. They will definitely be in many places before, for example, changing streets.
- Even before the adoption of the law, municipalities tried to change the names of streets such as P. Cvirkos, L. Giros, J. Janonio, but in some places it failed because the residents did not approve. There is no direct requirement in the law to consult communities. Will street names be changed without asking the residents' position?
- If the interdepartmental commission decides that one or another name needs to be changed and submits such a proposal to the director general of the center, the director will actually have to make a decision.
The law provides that the municipality, if it does not agree with the decision, has the right to appeal it to the administrative court. The legal process may take a long time in some cases.
- Are you not afraid of conflict situations, confrontation?
- I think that they will arise, especially if it is related to financial matters, to other changes for the population.
- How long do you imagine the process of cleaning public spaces will take?
- If there will be a lot of legal processes, it may take five or eight years.
- In Lithuania, it is being considered more and more that a Museum of Victims of Communism should be established. Representatives of this government also spoke about him. In your opinion, is there a need for a new museum, or should the Museum of Occupations and Freedom Struggles be redone?
- I think that there is no need for a completely new museum, because it would take a very long time to search for new premises or a plot of land, it would require a lot of adjustments and large investments. It seems to me that it would be good to establish a Museum of Communism on the basis of our Museum of Occupations and Freedom Struggles.
Our exposition corresponds to the theme of the Museum of Communism, and if we could get additional premises in the former Lukiški prison complex, which would also be very relevant, because it is a historical place connected with both communism and Nazi repression, and if we could still expand the museum premises at Aukų Street 2A /at 40 Gedimino Prospekt (in the former KGB palace, where the Museum of Occupations and Freedom Struggles - BNS) operates - that would certainly be enough. That would be the best solution.
Initially, it was planned that this building would house the Genocide Research Center, the Special Archive, which is the former archive of the KGB, and the organizations of political prisoners and exiles. It was planned to hand over this entire building to these institutions, but this idea was not implemented. Now our museum and Special Archives occupy a smaller part of the building, and the courts occupy the majority.
We only exhibit 10 percent. the rest of what we have is stored in funds. If there were additional space, it would not be difficult to set up exhibitions.
- The center is preparing guidelines for the implementation of the entire territory of Lukiškii - the prison, the square, the KGB palace. What stands out?
- Yes, we are preparing a feasibility study or concept. Two parts are done, we are still preparing the third. They should facilitate the Government, the Seimas and the Vilnius City Municipality on how to manage Lukiškiau Square and the former prison complex.
I think we will complete the third part by the spring of this year, submit it to the authorities, and the political decision will be in their hands.
We are not only talking about the monument Lukiškiai square, about the arrangement of the entire territory.
We are in favor of the fact that the square should not belong to the municipality, but to the state. It must be a representative square, it must have some accent. We are not saying that it is necessarily Vytis. There may also be an obelisk with corresponding symbols.
Regarding the Lukiški prison, our principle position is that it should not be divided, but preserved as a single multifunctional complex, where museums, libraries, an information center, and cafes could operate. Partly leaving the current activities and making spaces into museums. We believe that there is no need to divide and privatize individual parts of the complex.
- The Seimas a new version of the Genocide Center Law has been prepared. Do you support the name change to the Center for the Study of Totalitarian Occupations and Resistance?
- It seems to me that it is not good that the new name is as long as the current one. But in terms of content, "totalitarian occupation" is more specific than genocide. It further specifies the content of our institution's research - that the Nazi and Soviet occupations are the object of our research.
We are still thinking of proposing our own options for the name, for example, it could be the Institute of National Remembrance. in Poland, such institutions operate in Estonia.
Another new thing is that specific names of departments are to be removed from the law.
The project states that the center consists of departments, the Museum of Occupation and Freedom Struggles as a separate autonomous unit and other structural units.
I think that the hands of the center's management are in a sense untied to make structural changes, because it is no longer specified specifically what the departments should be. For 30 years, the center has been working with the structure established by law. It is not good that there is no possibility to make structural changes, if they are ripe. If the institution does not change, it slowly dies.
- The project envisages the creation of an external council of experts. What would you expect from this board?
- This council is a completely new thing. I expect valuable advice from her, as there will be representatives from universities, the Institute of Lithuanian History, and other important academic institutions, which may be valuable for us in a professional sense, discussing the directions of the center's activities and scientific programs. Such an intellectual academic assistant is needed and can be useful.
In the end, there will be easier contacts with government institutions, if there are their representatives - the Seimas, the Presidency, the Government.
- When you started working, you were going to order an independent audit, maybe there are conclusions and some changes are being prepared?
- Yes, the conclusions are there, we have started discussing them with the heads of the center's departments, but that process will take some time. Some conclusions we agree with, others we have doubts about. We ourselves have not yet decided how much to follow the expertise provided.
I think there will be structural changes at least at the level of departments.
- In recent years, the Genocide Center has become known for internal disagreements, and there have been accusations of mobbing. How would you describe the atmosphere in the institution at the moment?
- There were trainings on mobbing, those things may not have brought much benefit. The most important thing is people to communicate with and talk to.
The main opponent - the former director of the Memorial Department, Gintarė Jakubonienė - no longer works at the center. There was a case in court, complaints to the Labor Inspectorate, the Labor Disputes Commission, the Seimas, but we finally resolved the issue by concluding a settlement agreement with her, she withdrew the lawsuit from the court and, by agreement of the parties, she left her job with a large payment. It seems to me that this thing will improve the psychological atmosphere in the team and there will be less internal conflicts.
This does not mean that everything is fine, but it is a big step towards normalizing the working atmosphere.
- One of the latest functions of the Genocide Center is the granting of the status of defender of freedom. How many people have applied for this status? Is there enough data to process applications?
- There really aren't many so far, several hundred people have applied. Candidates themselves often submit various documents, some organizations provide their own lists or documents. So far, there are no major problems with the documents. If thousands start applying, then more serious problems may arise.
The current law does not provide any material benefits to the holders of this status. If it were supplemented with these benefits, there might be more people who want to get the status. For now, we will issue certificates and badges of defenders of freedom. Now it's a matter of honor.
- In September 2020, by the decision of the director of the Genocide Center at the time, the registration log of the archived personal files of the KGB agency was removed from the website www.kgbveikla.lt, which contains the names and surnames of secret KGB collaborators and other data. Do you have any plans to bring it back to the public in some form? The law obliges the center to publish the documents of the special services of the former USSR.
- There are over 1600 names in that magazine, and during the entire Soviet period, there were more than 100 thousand KGB informers, agents, conspiratorial apartment owners.
It is not clear on what principle and for what purpose that journal was compiled. There were also well-known persons who caused the scandal, not only from the recent period, but also from Stalin's time. Such a mixture has been made, it is not at all clear what principles were followed in compiling that agents' magazine. In percentage terms, this is only one and a half percent of the agents and informers who operated throughout the Soviet era.
That journal is, of course, a valuable document, its original is stored in the special archive of Lithuania, and it can be consulted if there is a desire.
Whether it is worth returning to our site is doubtful.
- Another important area of activity of the center is the search for remains of partisans. Some time ago, a DNA bank of partisan relatives and a special search department were established. How is the DNA collection going?
- It seems to me, it's not bad. Biological data collection is ongoing. A number of people appear who send information about the fallen partisans and ask to search for specific places where their remains could have been buried.
Archaeological searches are a more complex process because they require a lot of resources. We don't have archaeologists ourselves, we hire them, it requires a lot of funds, and there are a lot of requests, we can't take them into account and check them all.
- When searching for remains, what will be the main focus this year?
- Our priority was to find Juozas Vitkaus-Kazimieraitis. It was found in Leipalingi.
Of course, the priority remains the search for the remains of Juoz Lukša-Daumantas. There are four versions that we are testing. I would not like to name them specifically.
The search for Liongins Baliukevičiaus-Dzūkas is also important.
- The Genocide Center is also responsible for perpetuating the remains of exiles and political prisoners abroad. Most of them are in Russia. Do you have any knowledge of the situation there?
- Lithuanian graves are simply disappearing there. We received information that the water in the cemetery of deportees at the mouth of the Lena simply washes away the remains, the situation is very bad.
When Soviet monuments are removed in Lithuania, Russia will react to it. There is no need to think that we will cut down and they will not do anything.
Now we are working with Kazakhstan, the government of this country is favorable and does not prevent us from working there. Last year, on May 31, we unveiled a memorial to the fallen Lithuanians in Spaske, near Karaganda.
This year we want to do it in Balkhash. There were three main camp complexes in Kazakhstan, a monument to the Kengyr rebels of 1954 was built in Dzheskasgan, we built it in Spask last year, and if we build it in Balkhash, the whole cycle will be completed.
- Thank you for the conversation.
The author is Jūratė Skärytė
